Gentle reader(s), this will undoubtedly be the longest post in the sordid and spotty history of this blog, but it serves an educational purpose. Below, please find my conversation with a guy who's been my friend for 25 years, since middle school. Being from Oklahoma, most of my friends from childhood could be considered relatively conservative and most definitely evangelical Christian. I don't know if I'd ever have a chance to speak this intimately to a fundamentalist unless I'd known him since I was a kid... so I think this conversation was illuminating.
I feel confident in saying that my responses would have been much more pointed and aggressive had I not had a 30 year history with this person. I was struck by the fear in his responses, and by the difficulty he was having in reconciling his antiquated belief system in the face of massive societal upheaval.
Names have been changed to preserve anonymity.
Glen, November 5 at 10:30am
DUDE! I understand that prop 8 is important to you, but what is up with Doug[mutual friend]? he put out a question, I answered it, and he railed on me. Please read what I read, I am sure I did not call him any names or anything. He asked for an opinion/agrument on the other side. Did I do something wrong?
Milkman, November 5 at 10:38am
Hmm... lemme check...
Milkman, November 5 at 11:32am
Oof... okay let's break this down.
You and Doug are coming at the marriage issue from different places, and getting stuck in the middle somewhere. Doug's argument (which is identical to my own) is that there are many kinds of marriages, only some of which are recognized by the church. For example, there are common-law marriages, civil marriages conducted at city hall, marriages officiated by random people who got certified to perform marriages in some screwy onling course, etc. There are drunken quickie marriages in Las Vegas. There are also marriages between divorced Catholics in which the marriage is not recognized by the church. All of these relationships are called "marriage" and are afforded the exact same rights and responsibilities that a marriage blessed by the church enjoys.
You are approaching this issue from the position that marriage is a Biblically-based, religiously-affiliated institution. For you, this is absolutely true. But for many many others, their marriage has nothing to do with Bible teachings. For each example of Biblical precedent for the institution of marriage, there is another example showing that there is equal precedent for marriage as a civil institution. Arguing whether marriage is a Bible-based institution versus a civil/nonreligious one is a moot point, because it's both. It just depends on who you ask.
What Doug appears to be saying is that it's very hard for those whose worldview is very Bible-centered to step back for a second and see the fact that in practice, marriage is and always has been as much a secular institution as well. In debates like the Prop 8 thing, it hits a very personal note. Gay and lesbian people have a long history of being discriminated against... not because we "chose" to be gay, but because that's the way we are. I prayed til my knees were flat, and I'm still a big old queen (and still Christian, if that makes a difference). So when it comes to a process that requires us to go door to door to straight people asking them for "permission" to marry, it sticks in our craw a bit.
Marriage is a human right... so much so that even convicted child molesters and murderers who will never ever see the light of day outside prison again, they are allowed to get married while in prison even though they'll never be able to touch their spouse. So while no one is saying that my partner of 15 years and I should be able to walk into the First Baptist Church and demand to be married by the pastor (churches have always picked and chosen whom they consent to marry, and this is no different) , we should instead have the option of a civil marriage. (There are plenty of churches that would marry us, of course... the Unitariand and the Church of Christ for example... but that's another discussion.)
And no, I don't believe the Bible is the unerrant word of God. I believe God is far too complex and awesome to be explained in a book, especially one that has been monkeyed around with by kings and popes over the centuries as much as the Bible has. And that's okay... there are lots of churches who totally agree with me. There are others who disagree mightily. But that shouldn't matter, as we're not talking about church marriage. We're talking about civil marriage, civil (secular) rights, and equal protection of our relationships under the law. We need this because "civil unions" are not respected in the same way that marriages are. There have been several recent court cases showing that "separate but equal" simply doesn't exist. We need to be able to leave our property to our spouse without being taxed more than straight people. We need to be able to have our wills not be contested by some long-lost fundamentalist relative, and have our spouses kicked out of the house after we die (this happened last year in Wisconsin to a man whose husband died). We need to have access to marriage for the protection of our children, as many states (including Oklahoma) don't recognize gay or lesbian people as adoptive parents. We need to be able to make medical decisions for each other when needed, without having to spend thousands of dollars on legal contracts and protective documents... straight people don't need purchase those, and we shouldn't need to either.
What our arguments come down to is this: our relationships are just as worthy and valid as any heterosexual marriage, and deserve to be treated equally under the civil (secular) law... and also, civil and human rights should never ever be up for popular vote. They are granted to us because of our equal humanity and because we're Americans. Putting our right to marry the people we love to a popular vote is wrong and un-American. That's why it's important for us to have recourse in the courts... not the judges are being "activist", but that they're fulfulling their constitutional role by protecting the rights of the minority from the tyrrany of the majority. That's what they're for. Does that makes sense? I usually try to keep a cool head when discussing this issue, as conversations about civil rights, fairness, and religious belief are like maneuvering through a minefield. But if someone asks about it and really wants to know, I think they deserve a reasoned, calm, and respectful answer.
Glen, November 5 at 11:47am
True, your argument does make sense although i disagree with your interpertation of the Bible. My thing is that we would not even have marriage at all if it were not for the Bible. that is where it came from. If people do not believe that, then the debate is virtually moot. True? Believe it or not, I have grown a lot. there is NO WAY I could have this discussion with Doug several years ago. I really do respect his point of view. I just disagree with it.
Milkman, November 5 at 12:07pm
Hiya - Right, we totally disagree on the interpretation of the Bible. And that's totally okay... that's the nice thing about being an American. You can disagree on religious views (and therefore go to different churches... or no church), but still have the same civil (secular) rights. Yes, you're saying that marriage came from the Bible and that we wouldn't have it if it weren't for the Bible. Again, you're coming from a religious position. Marriage has changed throughout the ages, but there has always been the co-existence of religious and secular marriage. There still is today... you have to get a license for marriage from the state, and you have a marriage blessing ceremony at your church. Those are two totally different things.
The debate may be moot from a religious standpoint... either a church's teachings permit same sex marriage or they don't. But the debate is totally not moot when it comes to the other, equally important type of marriage: civil/secular marriage. This has been around for centuries, ever since the institution was created to facilitate transfer of property (the woman) from one man to another. Kinda barbaric by our standards today, but that's what it was about back then. These days, it's the civil marriage that confers the legal rights and responsibilities, not the religious one. And that's what we're fighting to have recognized.
Don't get frustrated... it's really nice that you're asking and wanting to know. So many religiously conservative people go through life with blinders on and don't ever want to learn or understand. I wish there were more folks with your curiosity.
Glen, November 5 at 12:14pm
I can agree with the barbarism of property transfer and health and medical issues. My issue deals with what I wrote in my last post to Doug. If it were that simple, yes, equality. I will ask you to look at it from my perspective(not the radicals who call you names) (me, Glen) I am asked to be tolerant, and respectful of other views. I can not state my beliefs, that makes me a radical Christian. I can not say that I do not agree with a certain life style, that makes me narrow minded. I can not say that I believe in creationism, that makes me ignorant. From my perspective every time I am tolerant of one more idea, belief, or lifestyle that I do not agree with, I lose more and more of my voice or the right to speak up for what I believe in. MY personal thought is.. what is next? tolerance in what can be preached in my church? That is how I feel. For every inch given I lose two. When is enough going to be enough? Is never no more no less, it seems to always be more
Milkman, November 5 at 12:42pm
I hear ya... and I'm also hearing some frustration and a little fear when it comes to the changing face of society. It's something I'm noticing in conservative America, this tendency to want to put the brakes on. Socially, things are changing pretty fast from an historical stanpoint.
About beliefs, I think it's a stretch to say that you can't state your Christian beliefs for fear of persecution... especially in Texas, right? I imagine it's pretty safe to be a conservative Christian there. My first instinct is to say that freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from criticism... yes, you can be criticized for your ideas just like I can, and that includes your religious opinions if you choose to air them publicly. (That's why I'm always so private about mine, because my spiritual opinions are between me and God.) But if someone tries to keep you from saying something you believe in, then that's patently wrong.
First off, believing in a lifestyle... I always think "who am I to approve or disapprove of someone else's life?" If someone says they disapprove of me being gay, then yes, they deserve criticism because unless we're sleeping together it has nothing to do with them. Creationism is something that shouldn't be taught in public school science classes, but no one should tell you you can't teach it at home or at church. And if anyone ever tried to tell your pastor what to preach on Sunday, I'd totally call bullshit.
But your central issue seems to be the sensation that you're being pressured to accept and understand things that are hard for you to accept and understand without a little discussion about it first, which is understandable. Yes, society has changed, but there is still room for a conservative or religious voice. It's just that the tacit assumption that this voice is the only valid or acceptable one is beginning to relax. Conservative Christianity, from a political perspective, has been hard to deal with for people who don't believe in that. Many times, we hear that the fundamentalist viewpoint is the only valid one, and that we'd better get right with God or burn in hell. Preachers in some churches and on TV whip their followers into a frenzy, resulting in very real prejudice and violence, as well as civil rights issues like the one we're talking about. This means that the majority of gay guys like myself (and Doug) grew up associating religious conservatives with a lot of extremely painful events and feelings, which I guess explains why calm discussions are difficult to facilitate. What many Christians have trouble understanding is how to articulate their position without insisting that theirs is the ONLY valid position. You can obviously do it... but many others can't.
Glen, November 6 at 3:25pm
It is called listening. Which with age has become easier to do. I certainly DO NOT place you, Doug, our other gay glassmates, and assuming your partner, in the same category as the SUPER RADICAL groups who are and were attacking the supporters of Prop 8. I know that is not you, no more than I am in the James Dobson SUPER RADICAL group. As I had told Doug in my last post. If it was as Doug stated, just a Marriage certificate or Marriage rights and nothing more, nothing less, that would be drastically different. It is the Radical fringe that gets one thing and wants to take two or three(from my perspective). This is what scares me. When IS enough? My feeling is that I have to defend my rights as a Christian just so that I will continue to have them. couple of questions. Do you feel a Preacher shoudl have the ability to refuse to marry a gay couple if he does not agree?
Glen, November 6 at 3:30pm
another question, This "fairness Doctrine" what is your opinion? I am having trouble understanding why a Christian radio station, Conservative station, Liberal station, or Gay/Lesbian station should be MADE to air or display every and all views even if they are contrary to the theme of the station. If everyone has a station why do they need to equal out everyone? I do not get it?
Milkman, November 6 at 3:59pm
This is a touchy subject, as I'm still smarting from the election results. One actually CAN and SHOULD place me in the same group as those who feel extremely bitter resentment toward those who supported Prop 8. One can also include my mom, my dad, my sister, my brother-in-law, all of my co-workers, and many of my partner's family in that category too. My dad can't hardly even talk about it without getting his blood pressure up. And actually, the marriage I'm talking about really IS just a marriage certificate and the accompanying civil rights. That's all we want. Really. If "civil unions" were offered the same respect and secular recognition as the word "marriage", then that would be fine too... but they aren't. Recent lawsuits from the last couple years show that to be true.
That said, I think a preacher should absolutely be able to refuse to marry any couple he or she chooses, gay or straight, just like they've always been able to do. Catholic priests refuse to marry couples all the time... if one's divorced, for example. Even if both have never been married, a couple still can't have a full mass for their wedding service if one of them is Protestant. It's the way it's always been, and I support it as long as there are no public funds going to their organization(s). If you don't like the way a church runs their business, either work to change it from within, or go to another church. Or don't go to church at all, and work it out individually.
The FCC's "fairness doctrine" is problematic for me, too. The idea that any and all opinions should be treated as being equally valid is difficult to enforce, given the fact that many opinions are based on hatred, bigotry, misinformation, psychosis, or any number of other bizarre things. I do think that broadcast stations, since they are using the airwaves provided for free by the American people, should do their best to ensure truthful coverage of issues like this. But given the fact that most broadcasters are owned by for-profit corporations and therefore have ulterior motives, I can't say it'll work very well.
Listening is awesome, and it's hard to do sometimes. But some things are really not statements that deserve attention and patient listening. It's so hard for me to listen to people telling me my partner and I are an abomination, disgusting, not deserving of equal rights, dangerous to children, shameful, perverted, sick... and those are just the things I've read today. This is the reason why I don't go home to our home town very often. Growing up hearing those things, day in and day out, not just from kids in my class but from adults in the community that I was taught to respect, did a number on me that took years and years to un-do. I totally understand what was going through [our gay classmate who killed himself in high school] Mike's head before he did what he did, because it was going through mine too. And [Mike's boyfriend] Jay's. And it's not because Mike was sick in the head, it's because all he heard when he was growing up was that God hated him and he was going to hell unless he changed something about himself that he knew he would never be able to change.
So when I start to see so many people voting and working to grant people like Mike and Jay and [gay classmate] Lance and me equal marriage rights, it makes me honestly need to sit down for a minute and digest the shocked relief... I thought maybe, finally, we're moving in a direction where full participation in the community is possible. And when I see these efforts stymied by bajillions of dollars spent by the LDS church on ads that were specifically designed to whip up hatred and fear by disseminating outright, bald-faced lies about people like me... it makes me want to throw up. Wanna know why there's a stereotype of gay guys as alcoholic drug addicts? That's why. I know you're not a Dobson-ite. And you're awesome for that. I wish more conservative Christians had kind hearts and open minds.
Glen, November 6 at 4:19pm
not to make light of the discussion, but I do not like going back to our home town either. Talk about circa 1950's. I hated Mike for SO LONG for doing what he did. I felt it was so selfish. I then realized I was selfish for my feelings. Honestly I grew up with the same thing. It is kinda funny. I heard someone ask what is up with our home town? It goes on here in Texas. I love to cook, keep myself in good shape, basically picked out and decorated our home, picked out the tile and granite. I help my wife when it comes to shoes and clothes, I do not personally own any Prada shoes but the majority of my shoes are Johnson & Murphy and Bostonian, and Clarke.....Should I be worried? I have friends at Church that tell me I am REALLY in touch with my femenine side........I just really like those things, not that there is anything wrong with that.....
Milkman, November 6 at 4:36pm
Yeah I was mad at Mikee too, but at the time I was more scared than mad because I knew that there but for the grace of God went I. If my family hadn't been as awesome as they are, I feel confident in saying that that would most certainly have happened to me. Thank God I graduated right after that... college, even though it was in our home town, felt as though I had left an airtight room for the first time, and I could breathe.
And yeah, you do have just a little bit of sugar in your tank. That's okay, it makes you attractive to the ladies. Women generally just love us. It's interesting though... the majority of gay guys here in Wisconsin look exactly like the rough guys back home. Buzz cut, Carhartt jeans, work boots, tshirts or thermals... very butch. I'm thinking of my friend who's an electrician, and his partner, who's a security guard. Not a lot of Prada shoe-wearing homos out here. It's kind of nice.
Milkman, November 6 at 4:44pm
Another thing. You've mentioned "what is enough" a couple times... what is it that you're afraid that the left is going to take from you, other than your money in taxes?
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Glen, November 6 at 8:00pm
well specifically my religious freedom. For example, my right to listen to christian radio music/talk, my right to listen to a conservative radio program, my right not to have to listen to a liberal radio program, my right to pray when I want, and where I want my right to read my Bible silently when I want and where I want, my right to make the Final decisions about what my children learn and do not learn according to my values. When a father is handcuffed and arrested by a school board because he was not agreeing with what they were teaching his child and that they would not let him opt his child out.(true story) That is too far.
If I chose to raise my child in a Christian home and that child is taught to pray, and that child wants to pray before lunch, a test, that child should not be singled out, or suspended, or punished if that child is not harming anyone. I do not want to be mandated or forced by law to accept or honor things that are not in accordance with my values or beliefs. That is VERY VERY different than understanding, respecting, tolerating different views and lifestyles choices.I have great respect for you and your ability to make a decision that you feel is right for you. Who am I to tell you that YOU ARE WRONG even though I may disagree with your choice. The Bible I talk about even says, "Judge not lest ye be judged." "Judgement comes from the father above."Believe me, that is NOT a job I want!!!!I also do not want others to do it to ME!!! Excatally as you do not. I guess it interestingly boils down to something similar to what you feel (I think). I feel that the rights I have are in jeopardy of being taken away and it scares me because I feel that if I let go of even one I will lose them all. Do you feel that you have NO rights, and that to get even one must cast a wide net?
Milkman, November 9 at 12:08pm
Gosh, that's a lot of fear. I don't remember you being this afraid before. I'm not sure who told you that you needed to be, but all this fear is pretty misplaced. You're assuming that freedom and liberty are a zero-sum game, with one group gaining rights at the expense of the other. It's not that way. No one's trying to keep you from listening to or reading whatever you want. The father you mentioned is well within his rights to take his kid out of school when he wants to ... I don't know the whole story there, but that's what I'd surmise was the outcome. And I'm relatively certain that school boards can't arrest people, so there's that. If your kid wants to pray in school by himself before a test or say grace before lunch, who's going to stop him? The only time this is a problem is when kids who aren't Christian feel pressured, and one kid praying before a test doesn't constitute pressure. You went to a school that didn't allow prayer, and you turned out fine because your parents were involved and encouraged your spiritual growth at home and in Sunday school. Do you see Christians being rounded up and put into jail in other countries where marriage is equal? Spain? The Netherlands? Norway? South Africa? Canada? Nope. It's all working fine, and everyone, including conservative Christians, is okay.
You also keep mentioning a choice. I'd let it go, but you've mentioned it a few times. There was no choice. I know the church tells you there was, but please believe me that there wasn't. I'd totally admit it if there had been one, but there wasn't. This is the way I was made. People knew I was gay in third grade, before I even knew. No choice was made. I prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed for God to make me not Gay... who'd want to grow up gay in Stillwater? But even after praying 'til my knees were flat... still gay. So through lots of prayer and soul-searching, I finally came to the realization that God wants me to be just the way I am. No choice for me, just like there wasn't one for you. And it's not a lifestyle. It's my life. If I became celibate today and for the rest of my life, or if I married a woman tomorrow and stayed married until I died, I'd still be gay.
The only thing that anyone would be forced or mandated to do would be to treat others equally under the law even if their church doesn't think they should have to. This is because we don't live in a theocracy. Human and civil rights should never be up for popular vote... that's why the founding fathers gave us separation of church and state as well as an independent judiciary... to protect the religious from excessive state interference, and to protect the rights of the minority from being trampled by the majority.
And what's this about having "no rights" and "getting even"? Of course that's not what's happening. That's silly. Every American has the same rights, it's just that some Americans are allowed to exercise all of them while others are not. It's a question of fairness, not "getting even". Again, it's not a zero-sum game. For me to have equal protection under the law doesn't cost conservative Americans a single bit of their existing liberty. They can go on thinking I'm going to go to hell all they want. They can keep refusing to recognize my relationship in their churches. They can raise their kids any way they see fit. But when their right to religious expression starts to bleed into my right to equal treatment under the law, then the law must win out. And if gays were to really "get even", there's be a whole lot of violence and bloodshed to atone for the centuries of church-encouraged systematic misery and violence against us, including the holocaust, the crusades, the middle ages. Where would we stop? It would be absurd to even try to do something like that.
So no, it's not like I have "No Rights". Despite the fact that gay people are still killed in hate crimes frequently in this country, I know I've got it better than those poor young gay boys who were hanged in Iran this past year. I've got it better than the gays in Jamaica who are hunted down and beaten by angry mobs, most recently this past summer. I've got it better than the gays who are even now being put to death in Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe. But does the fact that I'm not being hunted down and killed by my own government mean that I should be satisfied with anything less than the equal treatment under the law that my country's constitution promises?
Glen, November 10 at 1:03pm
You are right, but at times it does feel like a zero-sum game. Please accept my apology, I believe I may have offended you by using the word choice and lifestyle. I understand and accept that to you it was not a choice, and it is your life, not "a lifestyle." Life is life, mine is different than yours, is different than John or Jane Doe. Actually Christians are being jailed in some of those countries, and especially in Far East and Central Asia. Unfortuantely persecution has gone on since the beginning of time. The majority of which has been religious.
It seems to me, in my very very small mind that the persecution in many different countries is because of differences in beliefs and that violate laws. some countries it is aginst the law to be a christian, as I am understanding that it is aginst the Muslim faith to be homosexual? In this country, USA I get the feeling that most of the persecution is out of many of the same fears that I shared with you. Oh, lets not forget to add the word ignorrance. Fear and Ignorrance.Do me a favor, see if you can find the story about the sermon at FBC Dallas this past Sunday. What was reported(slanted I'm sure") was that Pastor Robert Jefferess preached on Homosexuality, and protestors peacfully protested out front that it was noting but hate speech. I also want to ask you some other questions I have. Unless you are tired of typing yet.
Milkman, November 10 at 1:42pm
I figured that's what you meant. And yes, Christians are being jailed in some of the same countries I mentioned. Under sharia law (muslim religious law), gays and lesbians are to be put to death in the most horrible ways imaginable. There was a photo or two smuggled out of Iran last year showing two 18 year old guys being hanged, and it's real hard for me to get that image out of my head. Yeah, the fear that you mentioned is something that was surprising to me. I really have been thinking about that this past weekend, wondering if maybe in addition to the hate (of which there's plenty), maybe there's just as much fear. That does kind of change how one would deal with a disagreement...
I heard about the FBC protest, and I'm glad that it was peaceful. It's hard to remain peaceful when emotions are running so high. But this is an example of how I would totally support the right of that pastor to preach whatever he wanted, while I also support the right of the protestors to voice their opinion. The pastor's blunder was that he listed the sermon's title on the public message board, which infuriated the public. This is a good example of a Biblically-justifiable but increasingly socially unacceptable bias. As long as we're a secular nation populated by lots of religious folks, we're going to get that kind of problem. I think it's okay to have that dichotomy as long as it doesn't urge people to become violent.
You can always ask me anything. :-)
Glen, November 10 at 1:55pm
Many/most Christians are aginst gay couples from adopting or having kids for many reasons. Here are the top ones. Forcing a lifestyle on them. Forcing them to do things they do not want to. Telling them that God is evil. Not giving them a sexual preference choice. Allowing them to observe sexual behavior that they should not. Making them be gay. Not accepting tem if they chose hetrosuality. Slanting life as to where the hate Christians. These are just some off of the top of my head. NOW, I never said that I believe any or all of these, but I will be honest many of these thoughts have crossed my mind. I have a difficult time seeing you forcing much of anything upon anyone that did not want it. That does not seem to be your nature, as I remember it.
Milkman, November 10 at 4:40pm
Well I'll tell ya... I know lots of gay or lesbian parents. To a person, they are all passionate about parenting... which they'd have to be given how much it costs and how hard it is to adopt or conceive. Parenting is parenting, no matter who does it... it's hard work, people make mistakes sometimes, and people need help (especially single parents). You can't possibly believe many of these concerns, given the fact that you know some gay people and know that we're not like that... but let's go through them one by one.
Forcing a lifestyle on them.
All parents do this. Kids are born to individuals who have lives of their own. Gay parents don't "force their lifestyle" on anyone, any more than straight parents do. Honestly, I really wouldn't know how to force my lifestyle (I hate that word) on anyone, even if I tried.
Forcing them to do things they do not want to.
What parent doesn't do that? It's called discipline. No kid wants to clean their room or wear clean underwear, but we force them to do it. Is that what you meant? Or are you talking about forcing a kid to do something sexual? That is a felony, and those people should be prosecuted and then killed. I know thousands of gay men and lesbians, and have never not once known a single one that was even rumored to be a pedophile. That's a really mean stereotype that has no basis in fact. All reputable research shows that most pedophiles are straight, simply because there are more straight people in the world. The percentage of the population is about the same on both sides, which means it's very rare.
Telling them that God is evil.
I don't know any GLBT parents who would do that. I've actually never heard of that happening. Not giving them a sexual preference choice.Well, given that it's not a choice, that's not possible. Even if it were, that choice is not appropriate for a child. If someone were to "decide to be gay" or whatever, that's a choice they'd have to make as an adult. But again, seeing as how it's not a choice, it is a moot point.
Allowing them to observe sexual behavior.
Sexualization of children is wrong, no matter who does it. That's not a worry just about GLBT parents, but about all adult-child interactions. Some things are not appropriate for kids... ever... and observing sexual acts is one of those things. This concern assumes that we're all sex-crazed, which isn't any more true for gays than it is for straights.
Making them be gay.
If I knew how to do that, a couple of our hotter classmates would be gay right now. Again, it's how you're made. No one can make anyone be gay, even kids. Likewise, no one can make anyone be straight... no matter how hard they pray on it. You can change behavior... like whether someone's celibate or not... but you can't change orientation.
Not accepting them if they're straight.
They wouldn't be a very good parent, then... would they? All the parents I know just assume that their kid will be straight. The law of averages supports that assumption. Every one of them tells me "I just want him/her to be happy and safe."
Slanting life as to where they hate Christians.
Most parents I know are either Christian themselves, or non-religious in a pretty benign way. The only way my kid will grow up hating Christians is if he sees Christians treating me, my partner, or his mom with contempt and hatred. There really isn't an effort to make kids hate Christians... most non-religious parents just don't care one way or another. They have more pressing things to worry about.
Wow. You've heard some scary shit about us. Remember... we're more alike than we are unalike. You mention that you don't think I'd be the type to do something like (xxx)... that's because we grew up together and you know me. I'm actually very similar to most GLBT people. You'd be shocked at how boring the lives of most gay and lesbian people are. Shocked. :-)
Glen, November 11 at 11:58am
Yes, and no, not really. I actually figured that most of it was hype mostly to freak Christians out and implant the fear bug. I am sure there are some ridiculous things that are blanketed over all Christians as well. You are right I do know you and I certainly did not ever place you under any of those suspicions.
When I boil this down and iron it out, I see the two main glaring things that we differ completely on are my conviction that people are not created gay, and your conviction that people are. My belief that the Bible is the complete inspired word of God without error, and you belief that it is not. Those might be two Mountains almost as high as Everest. I would be happy to discuss and debate them with you sometime.Your still the same friend I knew and grew up with, hopefully I have improved over the years.
Milkman, November 11 at 12:09pm
Yes, most of those concerns are pretty ridiculous, motivated by hate and fear of course... but that's the kind of thing that dehumanizes us and makes it therefore "okay" to discriminate against us or inflict violence against us. When a person doesn't recognize someone's equal humanity, then it's a lot easier to do terrible things to them without remorse, or in the name of Christian love.
In my case, being gay wasn't a choice. But even if it were a choice, this is America. I should still be able to choose to live any way I want to without losing my equal treatment under the law. It's the same with religion, which most certainly is a choice. You should be able to go to whatever church you want to and not lose your civil rights. As long as you're not hurting anyone, what's the problem?
Same thing with the Bible. There are lots of churches that don't believe that the Bible is the unerrant, complete word of God, and they're still considered Christian churches. That's a theologic difference that shouldn't make a hill of beans worth of difference when it comes to equal rights.
It just comes down to fairness, and an understanding that civil marriage recognition will in no way change what churches recognize and accept. The two kinds of marriage are separate entities. I really think there's room for more understanding between gay folks and conservative religious folks. Lots and lots of gay people are also Christian... we're more alike than we are unalike. It sure is hard to deny us the benefits of civil marriage when that fact is recognized.
It may seem like Christians are being trod upon right now, and perhaps rightly so because of the political activities of various individual demoninations. But there really isn't any reason to be afraid of gays getting married. We have every intention of being just as boring as all other married folks.
